When the three met the following week to continue their discussion, it was the First Elder who spoke first.

“Jesus tells us in Mark 9:44 that there is a hell and in hell there is a worm and the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched:

… hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.1

“Surely, this scripture explicitly teaches eternal torment!” He said.

“It teaches exactly what it says,” responded John. “And what it says is that in hell 1) their worm shall not die and 2) the fire is not quenched. Where does this scripture say that the unredeemed will be tormented forever?”

“Why, it says that they will never die and that the fire will never be put out! That seems pretty clear to me.”

“I would disagree," answered John. "This scripture does not say that they will never die. It says that their worm never dies. It does not say that the people or the souls in hell never die. Ezekiel 18:4 has already told us that the soul that sins will die."

“Well, that is obviously what it means, even if it doesn’t come right out and say it. The word worm does not mean real worms. It means the sinners. What else could it mean … come now, John, you are not going to say that it really means worms are you?”

“I am, indeed, my friend, because the Greek word means exactly that: actual worms. The word means worms; it does not mean men.2 And there is the reason that it says their worm.”

“It has to be a metaphor for the sinners. What possible meaning could it be for literal worms that never die in hell?”

“Why does it have to be a metaphor for the sinners?”

“Worms in hell? That doesn’t make sense.”

"You are right about that. Eternal worms in hell? It does not make any sense. Jesus was quoting from Isaiah:

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, saith the LORD.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.3

“Isaiah is referring to the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom or ‘Gehenna.’ Gehenna was a place of horror and abhorrence because it was the place where the apostate Israelites went to worship the gods of Canaan. It was a literal place outside of Jerusalem where refuse was thrown and burned. It became known as the final destination of the horribly wicked.

“We read in Second Chronicles that there was child sacrifice in the Valley of Hinnom:

Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel.”4

John continued, “Christ treats Gehenna as a metaphor for hell.5 Indeed, "Gehenna" is where the word hell came from. Isaiah paints a picture in which the bodies of the dead enemies of God will lay unburied and be eaten continually by worms. Their end is a horrible death and their bodies remain unburied. Isaiah paints the picture and Christ quotes Isaiah.”

"So it is a picture of hell," said the First Elder.

“It is a word picture of what will happen to those who transgress against God. The word ‘worms’ really means worms and the worms are the worms that are eating corpses of those who transgressed,” said John.

“If these are worms eating corpses,” asked the Second Elder, “why does the worm never die?”

“Because there is an infinite supply of corpses.” Said John. "It does not mean that God has created eternal worms."

“So,” said the First Elder, “you admit that the fires of hell are never quenched?”6

“The fire in the lake of fire,” said John “will burn forever.”

“And you admit that sinners are tormented in hell?”7

“Yes.”

“And you admit that sinners are thrown into the lake of fire?”8

“Yes.”

“Well then,” said the First Elder with great satisfaction, “you admit that they are tormented forever. Thank you!”

“I do not admit that,” said John.

“Why not?”

“For two reasons,” said John. “The first reason is because scripture says that the part that the unredeemed have in the lake of fire is death, not eternal torment:

But the … unbelieving … shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.9

"And the second reason is that there is absolutely no scripture that says the unredeemed are eternally tormented when they are cast into the lake of fire or at any other time.

“And,” added John, “Isaiah makes it clear that the worms referred to in that scripture are actual worms that are in corpses; that means that they were worms in dead people. The sinners who are the objects of abhorrence are already dead. They are not sentient, not suffering, not living souls writhing in pain. They are rotting dead corpses eaten by worms. Ugly, to be sure, but quite dead.”

“So, you’re saying that when God throws the sinners into the lake of fire they just, you know, die?” Asked the Second Elder.

“Exactly,” said John.

“That scripture can’t really mean that. We will have to come back to this,” said the Second Elder. “That word for death can’t really mean, you know, real death. Or else …”

“Or else, what?” Asked John.

“Or else eternal torment can’t be true,” said the Second Elder.

"Because if the second death really means death," said John…

"Then their soul simply dies," said the Second Elder.

"We all agree that there are two deaths in scripture," said John. "And we all agree that the first death is the death of the body and the second death is the death of the soul. And we all agree that when the body dies it really dies. It decomposes and it is dead. Why then would the death of the soul be any different? It is the same word. Why does the soul not die when it dies? Why is the second death not really death at all? Where does scripture say that the second death is not really death but eternal torment? And where does scripture say that the wages of sin is not, in fact, death?"

"These are good questions," said the Second Elder.

"How then can the death of the body in the first death be different from the death of the soul in the second death?" Asked John. "Why isn't the second death just as much of a death as the first death? And if the unredeemed don't die in the first death, what does die in the second death?"

There was a pause in the conversation.

"And if nothing dies in the second death, then why does the Holy Spirit call it 'death?'" Asked John.

“Why don’t you take a week to see if you can re-define the word for death for us and we can talk again.”

“It’s a symbolic use of the word. It’s a metaphor. It’s an isolated use; it’s the only use of the word for death that does not mean death…” said the First Elder.

“The word death is not metaphorical,” said John, “It means plain death. And there are 50 of them.”

“50 what?”

“Scriptures.”

“Scriptures saying what?”

“There are 50 scriptures saying that death is the end result of sin and the final state of the unredeemed. And there is not one scripture saying that the final end eternal torment.”

“And are you saying that there are 50 scriptures that say death is the final end of the unredeemed?” Asked the Second Elder.

“Let’s see them,” said the First Elder.“

“Sure,” said John. “They all use words like perish, devour, destroyed forever, consumed away, or burned up, but the word used most often is the Greek word thanatos, the just means plain death. And, perhaps more importantly, many of them teach that it is death, not eternal torment, from which Christ saves us. They all say that He saves us from death-they never eternal torment.”

"Here are most of them:

Psalm 37:20

“But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”

Psalm 92:7

“…when the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed forever."

Psalm 145:20

“The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.”

Isaiah 1:28

“... they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.” (KJV)

Another translation is:

“… and those who forsake Jehovah will perish.” (C.F. Keil and F. Delitzsch, Commentary on the Old Testament (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, reprinted 1975), vol. 7, page 107, sub Isaiah 1:28.

Ezekiel 18:4

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth shall die...”

Ezekiel 33:11

“As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from you evil ways; for why will ye die?”

Hosea 13:14

“I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death...

Obadiah 16

“For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.”

Psalm 56:11,13

“In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me ... For thou hast delivered my soul from death ...”

Matthew 3:12 (Luke 3:17)

His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Matthew 7:13

Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat.

Matthew 10:28

Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both the soul and body in hell.

Matthew 13:40

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned [consumed] in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 8:51, 52

Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death. Then the Jews said to Him, Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.

John10:28

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

Romans 1:32

Who, knowing the righteous judgment of God that those who practice such things are deserving of death...

Romans 5:12

Therefore just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.

Romans 5:21

So that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:16

Do you know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Romans 6:21

What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

Romans 6:23

The wages of sin is death.

Romans 8:13

For if you live according to the flesh you will die…

2 Corinthians 1:9

But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead; Who delivered us from so great a death…

1 Corinthians 1:18

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

2 Corinthians 2:16

To the one we are the savor of death unto death; and to the other the savor of life unto life.2 Corinthians 7:10

For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

2 Timothy 1:10

... but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, Who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Hebrews 2:9

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Hebrews 2:14

Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.

James 5:20

Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death...

2 Peter 2:9, 12-13

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished … but these … shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness …

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is … not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

John 5:16

If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death.

Revelation 2:11

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.

Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power ...

Revelation 20:14

And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:14,15 and Revelation 21:8

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire … [the] unbelieving … shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:8

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murders, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

All that shows," said the First Elder, "is that sin causes death. We all have to die because of sin. The original sin of Adam means that all men are mortal and will eventually die."

"That may well be true," said John. "But scripture says that it is appointed unto man but once to die and after that there is a judgment."10

"So?"

"So if all men die, what death are these verses talking about? Every one of them is telling us to avoid sin because sin causes death. Now, they can't be saying that if we don't sin then our body will never die because all bodies die. "It is appointed unto all men to die once."11 So what death are they talking about? What death does Christ save us from?12"

The Second Elder answered, "The second death. He saves us from the second death and not the first because everybody has to die once but not everybody has to die twice. Christ saves us from the death of our soul."

"Of course," said John. "There are only two deaths in scripture, and He does not save us from the first one because the first one is the death of the body and all bodies die. It is the second death that He saves us from. The second death is the most important; the second death is death is the death of the soul. That is the death that all of those scriptures are talking about."

The Second Elder responded, "So all these scriptures you quote. They are not talking about sin causing the first death. They are talking about sin causing the…"

"Second death." Said John. "Sin kills the soul."

"So what's your point?" Asked the First Elder.

"The point is that none of these scriptures are talking about the first death because all men, whether they are forgiven or not must die physically in the first death." Said John.

"I see that, but so what?" Said the First Elder, slightly frustrated. "So, they are talking about the second death. What's the point?"

"The point is, my friend, is that every single one of them says death. They all say that it is death that is caused by sin. None of them mentions eternal torment. They all say death."

"It is true that I have not found any scripture that directly says that sin causes eternal torment," said the First Elder. "I will have to give you that point. But everybody knows that death in the Bible doesn't really mean death. It means separation."

"Really? So death of the body is not the same thing as death of the soul even though its the same word? And what about all of the other words in Greek and Hebrew that mean death? Do all of those words for death really mean something else?" Asked John.

"Right." Said the First Elder, "Whenever you talk about the second death you are talking separation."

"Tell me." Said John.

"Well, death in the Bible means separation. So, in the first death, the body is separated from the soul. In the second death the soul and the resurrected body are separated again and they are both separated from God and the sinner is burned forever. So nobody ever really dies in the Bible."

"OK, so if death means separation. What is it that happened to a body that is dead and buried?"

"The body is dead."

"You mean separated."

"When you are talking about bodies, they really do die. They die and are separated."

"So," said John, "The word means that the body is plain dead. That is what the word means: plain death. Now, death certainly causes separation. It causes the separation of the body and the soul. But death does not mean separation. Death means death. When the body dies in the first death, the soul does not die, we know that from the parable of Lazarus."

"OK," said the First Elder. "The body is dead and separated from the soul. What's the difference?"

"The difference," said John, "lies in what it is that dies. Does the body die or does the soul die? When the body dies it causes a separation between the dead body and the soul because the body dies but the soul does not. Just because the soul did not die when the body dies doesn't mean that the body is not really dead. All it means is that the body is dead but the soul is not. Death is always the death of something. The only question is what it is that died."

"Death in the Bible does not really mean death. That's all I know. People don't ever really die, you know. They just go to heaven or hell."

“The Greek and Hebrew Lexicons do not define any of these words differently just because they are used in Revelation or because they are used in the Bible. We have already discussed this. The words mean the same thing no matter how they are used. That is the reason that we use different words to say different things.”

“But just because the Bible never says it directly does not mean that they are not eternally tormented.”

"How can you get all of those scriptures to say something that they just don't say? And what they all say is death. Ezekiel says clearly that "the soul that sins will die,"13 asked John. "How can you be tormented if you are dead?"

"Because you are not really dead!" Said the First Elder. "You may not be able to torment a dead body but no matter what the word means, they don't really die. They are only separated from God."

“So, Jesus is telling us that what He saves us from is death and you are telling us that He saves us from separation?" Asked John. "You are re-defining the words for death-and there ate 10 of them by the way. You have to re-define all of them for your argument to be persuasive. If you think you can do that, I would like to hear it."

“Shall we say next week at the same time?” Asked the Second Elder.

“Agreed” And they left.